The Most Overlooked Skill Every Land Investor Needs w/ Jaren Barnes

195: If you’re a long-time listener to this show, you almost certainly know Jaren Barnes.

(Show Notes: REtipster.com/195)

Jaren has been running his community, called the Land Maverick Society, for the past couple of years. He’s also among the very select few REtipster Certified Coaches, meaning he’s someone I know, like, and trust, and he aligns very well with the REtipster brand. Whenever people ask me where they can find a good coach in the land investing business, Jaren is one of the people I point them to.

Today, Jaren and I will discuss our thoughts on the current state of the market, some of the challenges many land investors have had this year, and, more importantly, why we should all have hope and why it’s not all doom and gloom.

Transcript

0:53

Hey folks, how's it going? This is Seth Williams. You're listening to the REtipster podcast, and today I'm talking with an old friend. If you're a long-time listener to the show, you almost certainly know this guy because he was the co-host of the podcast for about a hundred episodes, I think. Of course, I'm talking about Jaron Barnes. So Jaron has been running his own community for the past couple of years called the Land Maverick Society. He's also one of the very select few REtipster certified coaches, meaning he's someone that I know, like, and trust. He aligns very well with the RE Tipster brand. And whenever people ask me where they can find a good coach in the land business, Jaren is one of the people that I point them to. By the way, you can find out more about Jaren at landmavericks.com. But today, Jaren and I are going to discuss our thoughts on the current state of the market, some of the challenges that many land investors have had this past year, and more importantly, some reasons why we should all have hope. I'm sure we're going to hit on all kinds of other stuff in this conversation as we usually do. But Jaren, welcome back. How are you doing? I'm doing well, man. It's an honor to be here. Now, I actually have been talking to quite a few people in my network about who's kind of the go-to authority when it comes to real estate these days, because for a really long time, it was BiggerPockets. But I think BiggerPockets, it's safe to say they're losing their steam. And I was poking around on different social social media platforms asking questions about bigger pockets and everyone in the land community pretty much has said, all right, tipster is a new bigger pockets, at least when it comes to it. Wow. Yeah. So that's cool. Just wanted to throw that out there, man. Got nothing but mad love for our tipster and mad love for youth, man. I really want to, you know, have what I have at all if it wasn't for you. And, uh, you know, I definitely got to go give honor where honors do. I do. I owe you a ton, man. And every time I think about you, I'm just super grateful. Wow. I appreciate that very much. Yeah. I mean, BiggerPockets definitely has set quite the high standard just in terms of what real estate investing is and what people think about, especially in the internet space. So being compared to that in any way, that's awesome, man. Yeah. I think what it is, is they've stopped. They've gotten away from stuff that actually is practical how-tos for beginners. They really kind of optimize for large guests that really get a lot of eyeballs, as opposed to like really given, people what they used to back in the way day and for several years. So at least it's anecdotal. I'm not by any means talking down BiggerPockets. BiggerPockets is an amazing platform and I owe BiggerPockets quite a bit as well. So I just noticed that as of late, it's not really what it used to be. And it seems like most people in the real estate space kind of agree with that. Hopefully they turn things around. Well, in terms of the land business, I know this past year, it seems like I'm sure you've probably seen a similar thing or maybe different things than I have, but it seems like a year of, I mean, I don't want to say the struggle defines this year, but I just feel like I've heard a lot of that. At least when people are willing to be open and honest about it and not just talk about their successes. It seems like the common theme is that things are kind of getting harder. Things aren't coming as easy as they once did. And I don't know, have you seen a similar thing or what's been your thoughts and your observations working in the trenches? Yeah. So I think the vast majority of active land investors right now have come up either right before or during what I like to call the COVID frenzy. From 2020 to 2023, there was a bit of a gravy train where properties were moving faster than I've ever seen them move. And there was just a lot of activity. It was almost like a perfect storm because on one hand you had people who were freaking out about the government and they were hitting the hills and wanting to buy land and uh simultaneously you had uh kind of this artificially inflated economy where things were booming because the government you know literally gave out what was it called when they were giving out checks and stuff they uh there was a particular like like technical title for it uh stimulus or something yeah when they were given the stimulus checks, they simulated the economy. And it was quite the gravy train, but now we're on the other side of it. And I do think that we are approaching a downturn in the market. I think everybody is kind of at the edge of their seat, just kind of anticipating what's about to happen. But the reality is, at least in my experience, I would say that the current state of things are just slightly more slow. Than what's normal. I wouldn't say that they are over the top. I don't think that the sky is falling. I don't think that there's anything really to be super worried or anxious about. I just think people have gotten really, I don't want to say lazy because that sounds mean, but I think people have gotten spoiled. I think that's a better word. I think what they were experiencing, what I was experiencing, what everybody was experiencing was a gravy train and the gravy train always comes to stop. What goes up must come down. And before I was doing the land business back in 2000, I think 16, 17, 18, it was pretty similar to what it is now. I just say, my guess is that it's predominantly because of the election cycle. I think because we're approaching an election, everybody's just holding onto their breath, waiting to see what happens on both sides of the aisle. But my average days on market before the COVID frenzy was four to six months. I would anticipate, I would actually prep backup funders or people who came in and funded deals for me. And I'd say, hey, this thing sits for six months. It's normal in land. Don't worry. You know, we get to a year point, then that's something to be concerned about. But I wouldn't even touch properties for the first three months if, you know, I just anticipate that it would take a little bit to sell. So I think that, you know with what's happening it's really easy to get caught up the noise of the day and I just really want to encourage people that are listening right now the future is bright and. To be honest, I have been waiting my entire professional career for a downturn in the market. I know when I was working with you, Seth, back in the day, we would always talk about it every year. Everyone would say the sky was falling and is this going to be the year? And nope. I mean, it was a really long run of just going up and up and up and up. But on the other side of this downturn, no matter how severe or how minor the downturn ends up being, on the other side is an upturn. On the other side is an upswing. And I don't understand because I don't really feel like I'm that smart. I don't really feel like I'm that special. But when I read books about investing, kind of investing 101 is buy low and sell high. And so what that means is like, this is nothing new. There's nothing new under the sun. If everybody is selling, you buy low. And if everybody is buying, you sell high. So, you know, I just want to encourage people that this is very normal. And that on the other side of this, if you can weather the storms and navigate through the waters, you're going to be okay. And you're actually going to be able to ride an upswing. So just buckle up and whether it's three months, six months or a couple of years on the other side, I think a lot of millionaires, multimillionaires are going to be made because we're existing right now for such a time as this. So I just really want to encourage people, you know, you do need to remain nimble. You do need to be able to pivot aggressively at the turn of a dime. But as long as you can sustain. The waters of turbulence right now, you're going to be absolutely okay. The land business is an amazing model. Yeah. You know what's interesting? Because I think there's kind of a couple things going on. On one hand, the market is cyclical and things go up or down or sideways. That has happened before. That's nothing new. But the other side of it is the unique thing with the land business. Because with the last major downturn, there weren't really other land investors. You could literally say there was no competition for this particular model. And now there is competition. So to go through another downturn, it's not exactly the same thing as what happened before because you've got the market going down, but there's also a bunch of other people trying to do it. And so that's where I kind of get hung up or not hung up, but just really curious to see what that's going to look like because people really need to be buying for a very, very, very cheap price. If prices are plummeting to kind of shield themselves and give that buffer of protection, but that'll be a little harder if like everybody else is trying to do the same thing. So I don't know. I feel like when that time comes, we'll probably see some people get out of the land business. It's one of those things where, you know, there's a guy named John Paul Getty. He's got a quote where he said, in times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy. And I think that's really true because, you know, a lot of people that are struggling right now, or maybe people who've even gotten out of it, like part of the reason is because they're using that past experience as what they call normal. Like it's supposed to work this one way. And it's hard to be nimble. I mean, it's hard to change and figure out how to reshape and reform yourself and change your expectations as the world changes. I mean, I know that better than anybody. I'm really not good at that, frankly. Like I have a hard time getting on the bandwagon and rethinking things, but you really have to. I mean, if you want to survive, like you have to be willing to hit the reset button. And I think it does help to pay attention to like interviews like this or even like Facebook groups and forums and stuff just to like figure out like what is everybody struggling with right now? What are you seeing? You know, like the the land scaling summit that you and I were just at, like it was just helpful to have those conversations with people, especially when they're it's like one on one, like person to person. Nobody else is listening in. And it's not like it's a podcast interview where like, you know, the whole world is looking for success stories. It's like, no, let's just be real. Like what is really hard for you right now? Tell me. Or like what's not working for you? That kind of thing is really helpful too. Yeah, man. I got a couple of thoughts. You unpacked quite a bit there. Yeah, let's hear it. I do think that you are 100% spot on that your prior experience can really hinder your future success, if you are real rigid and firm on staying the course of what you built your whole operation on. But I think that's business. And even me right now, I've kind of been, I don't know, branded the guy that does land specialized agents to dispo property. But I'm thinking of ways on how to supplement my disposition efforts in conjunction with agents. Because I think the biggest thing that we're seeing in our own land business. Not even talking about our members and the people that I train at Land Maverick Society, agents are starting to get a little lazy, it seems like. And I think maybe it's because I don't know for sure, but I think possibly they rode a gravy train, too, for the last three years. And they're sitting on some cash and they're kind of taking it easy while they're kind of weathering the storm of the coming election and what's going to happen on the other side of the new year. And I have been having a lot of talks with my wife and our team about doing some things where we track days on market on our inventory. And if it hits like 90 days or it hits certain intervals, we have a series of activities that we do to support our agent and generate leads that they service because we need to have them justify their commission. So I still want them to work. But it's hard to shy away completely from agents in our model because we go after more premium property and I would not feel comfortable buying any property that I didn't have somebody's eyes on before taking title. They don't have to necessarily be mine, but our agents will walk every single property, take pictures, do videos, really make sure that that we're not losing our shirt. And it's really hard to do that without an agent unless you want to be doing it yourself to the degree of working with an agent because they have a trained eye. They can look at what type of timber quality is on the property. They can look at a lot of different things that kind of we go look or some random person on task or whatever really want to be able to do for you. The other thing though, I do want to say on what you mentioned. yeah there is a competition but in every business every industry let's say there's going to be competition but in land in particular i think that i still am a advocate for saying that we have some of the lowest competition in existence for when it comes to other industries uh you know back in the way day at our tips i i was in the process of making a blog post have never made the light of day. And depending on what source you cite, they say that only 3% to 6% of the landmass in the United States has developed. So that means all infrastructure, all cities, all roads, all towns, everything is, let's call it 6%. Let's even bump it up and call it 10%. If 10% of the entire landmass is what we call society and what we know as civilization. That means that potentially 90% of the landmass is viable for doing deals. Let's even like take it a step further, though, and call it not 90 percent, but let's call it 50 percent, because there are federally owned like federal reserves and unusable property stuff that has too severe slope in wetlands or whatever. Let's even go shorter and call it 30 percent. If we have with all of the like acres upon acres upon acres of city and civilization that we have developed is only on, say, 10 percent, which we're being conservative. And let's just say there's a total of 30% that's viable for doing deals. Again, being super conservative, we have so much threshold for competition. There's only about seven states that the vast majority of the industry is actually actively doing deals in. Nobody talks about Maine. Nobody talks about upstate New York. Nobody talks about Alaska. And there are viable places, is I think, honey holes that haven't been discovered yet. And I think that when you couple that with more, I don't know, advanced strategies or kind of alternative approaches to certain things, such as like becoming an expert in like converting landlocked property, to an easement access road, or you specialize in extreme title issues, or even you talk. Or subdivides or whatever it is that you can kind of make your niche that kind of sets you apart from the crowd. There's so much opportunity. It's kind of funny when I hear land investors talk about it because I've got a lot of friends in the household selling world. And, you know, in the household selling world, they define a market as oftentimes a section of a city. But let's call it a city or a town. we land investors call a market an entire county and so we just inherently have so much more volume so much more opportunity it's it's incredible and you know a lot of these household sellers they are on average i mean i'm running into people you know i have friends that have been household selling for years and years since back in my simple wholesaling days when i worked for a household seller named brett snodgrass based in indianapolis they're routinely seeing, household sellers having to do $70,000 to $90,000 a month in marketing. Like, you know, just to do like, you know, five, 10 deals are just kind of to be relevant. Whereas you're a really big deal if you're spending more than $10,000 a month in land marketing and marketing in land for marketing. So the long and short of it is, again, I do hear what you're saying. And yeah, it is different than it used to be. You could, literally just suck wind and get deals all day long in land way back in the day. But with every industry, it matures, it grows, it becomes more efficient. And that's just normal. Those are the normal waters of what it is to be an entrepreneur. So I'm like, I'm still completely rosy colored glasses over here. I think land is amazing. I think the future is bright. You know, it's interesting though, to draw the correlation. I've heard that the number one killer of all marriages. It's really failed expectations. People expect one thing and they get something else. You could probably say the same thing about a lot of stuff in life, including land investing. People have certain expectations, especially those who have been in it for a while or those who have just been sold on it through some kind of podcast or webinar or something like that. But these expectations are painted as like, yeah, this is going to be amazing and all this stuff. And it may still be that way, but it's just changing. It's not that it's bad or a poor business model is just different and that's okay. I think people who can adjust expectations or maybe even have the fewest possible expectations are probably going to do the best. People can just be flexible and roll with the punches and that kind of thing. It's hard because you have to have some expectations. You can't just not have any, but how do you have the appropriate amount of them? And you actually bring up a really good point, Seth. I want to shout from from the rooftops. Land requires a lot of work. It's extremely lucrative. And yeah, depending on how you structure things, you can turn it into a very lifestyle friendly based business. But it is not passive. It is not, I'm going to hit an easy button and press that and just kind of print out cash on the other side. It takes a lot of work. It is very common for both me and my wife to wake up at four in the morning, do a bunch of prep stuff. I'll talk specifically about my wife because she's more in the trenches of the land business. She'll wake up at say four o'clock in the morning. I know because I'm the one that's waking her up and she'll comp for two or three hours before her team comes in preparing offer amounts so that her team can then run with the offers and get things going. You know that if you want to make a lot of money in the land business, It is a full-time commitment and a full-time job. You know, definitely you can make, say, $10,000, $20,000 a month, maybe on some part-time hours. But I would never, ever come into the land business starting with that mindset, ever, because that is a recipe for disaster. You need to have the hustle on and then figure out the land business, overcome your learning curve. And then on the other side of that, sure, maybe you can optimize and try to start pulling back your time a little bit. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme by any stretch of the imagination. This is a true and tried business that takes a lot of effort. But as long as you're willing to put it in there, it's extremely rewarding. Yeah, totally. So a few minutes ago, you just kind of mentioned in passing, you were talking about how some land-specialized real estate agents are getting lazy. And that may very well be. but I was curious. So what makes an agent lazy or not? Cause it's kind of interesting. Like sometimes I think about this and when you're selling a property, like there is a limit to what you can do sort of like you know, putting together the best set of information, the best set of images, like really thinking through the price, maybe offering the best possible terms and then like making it visible in as many places as conceivably possible so that people can find it. I mean, maybe an agent could go so far as to like call up very specific people that they know are buying, if they have a big buyers list or calling builders or developers. But when you say that, like, okay, this person's getting lazy versus man, they work hard. Like what is the differentiator there? How do you know if somebody is working, like doing everything they can to do the job? Yeah. So I would say first communication, promptness is the number one indicator of a good or bad agent. Beyond that though, dispositions, whether it's being facilitated, the activities of dispositions, whether it's being facilitated by an agent or by a land investor or somebody on your team, it's all kind of the same. Sure, agents have a bit of an advantage because they, if they're good, have an active buyers list that they've been nurturing for a long time. And they have certain people that are actively looking for specific types of property that hopefully if your subject property matches, they can kind of reverse engineer and just, you know, send it out, maybe do a double close or whatever. So there's some benefit to kind of tapping into an already existing spinning wheel. But there's a lot of things that even was highlighted in the land summit, scaling summit that we were at, that I think is very true. And when agents are hungry, they do a lot of that type of stuff like sending out marketing to other agents other listed agents beyond the MLS via. Black SMS blast of some sort or direct mail campaign or what have you, making sure that there's actually a sign in front of the property, a big, you know, in your face sign that says property for sale. You know, it's not rocket science, but there's a certain amount of activities that you have to make sure happen. And oftentimes right now, the agents aren't doing that as promptly or without us having to ask. So, you know, like we, my wife had a, a little argument, let's call it, with one of our agents we've worked with for years, because all of a sudden she stopped doing drone footage on the right types of properties and then started saying that she wants to charge her, her listing clients for those. And that's fine whether, you know, we pay pay for it or whatever. But the fact that we had to catch it and then initiate like, hey, why all of a sudden are you stop facilitating drone footage on premium property? You know, doing things like reaching out to recent cash buyers, the neighbors, all that stuff that's highlighted on various podcasts and various, whether it's land or household selling or what have you, all that stuff is pretty crucial to move property, especially if you've hit certain days on market. And a lot of times in a kind of COVID frenzy, top of the market scenario, you don't have to, you just throw something on the MLS and then you got a frenzy of buyers chopping up the bits to sell. Tour the property and make something happen. And that's not the case in this market. So you have to adjust that. And you also have to make sure that you're managing your agents appropriately, that they're facilitating those types of activities. Yeah. That's interesting. That communication stuff, there's so much that lives inside that word. We've got the speed of communication. We've got the clarity of communication, the method of communication. There's like a person you're communicating with there's just there's a lot there if i feel like if a person can master that in any area of life like that will just put them so far ahead of everybody else out there because i feel like most people are pretty bad at it like that's kind of the standard is to just not be that good at it or at least struggle in one of the different ways a person could struggle at it i remember seeing this in banking all the time like people People would just be awful at like whether they responded at all or if they did send an email or something. It was just really hard to understand what they were saying, just stuff like that. So, yeah, that's, I guess, a lesson to everybody out there, whether you're new or experienced. Like just know it matters a lot. And people make initial and repeat buying decisions based on your quality of communication. So like it's worth the effort to figure out how to do it well. I agree. And I got lessons to learn there too. So tell me about Land Mavericks. What are you up to? What's new over the past year? What are you looking to do over the next year? I don't know if this is part of Land Mavericks or if it's like a sister company or something, but you guys are funding deals now. You have kind of a different approach to coaching than what I see from most coaches out there. I mean, there's other stuff we can get into as well, but where should we start? Do you want to talk about maybe your unique approach to coaching? Like how it's not necessarily what you might expect from most coaches? Yeah, man. And I appreciate you asking that. So most coaches, in some form or fashion, will meet with you maybe once a week, maybe a couple times a week, to just kind of throw a bunch of theory at you. And then they kind of salute you off and say, good luck implementing. Here's some really nice information. And some of the information is really, really good. But the vast majority of people, particularly in the realm of just getting started, they need more than just a bunch of really good information. They need you to hold their hand in the trenches and showcase, all right, we're working seller leads together. I'm going to take a call. You take a call. And really showcase what it looks like and the fine-tuned, nuanced details. And so I don't know. Coaching is kind of a loaded word. And maybe I'm not really a coach. maybe I'm something else, but I can't find a better word for it. I'm kind of like a fractional partner of our members team. So I am available to call seller leads, call agents, help run due diligence, help select markets, kind of the full kit and caboodle as though I am on their team. And we're different in that you know for our two top tier tiers of membership i give my personal cell phone number out to our members and we offer unlimited one-on-one sessions and that sounds crazy like how do you how do you handle all of that but the vast majority of the time people don't need one-on-one as much as you would imagine most of the time it's only in the very beginning stages to, you know, get things going. And then, you know, they're going to reach out to you if they actually have a problem that they're stuck on. So I've really made myself available and, plan to continue to do so because sometimes it really is, hey, you're not qualifying your leads properly or hey you're not calling people enough like you just sent one call yeah you made one call and then they didn't answer so you left a voicemail and then now you're expecting them to actually call you back and it's funny to me because that's so foreign to what actually works in the business you have to be aggressive you have to be kind of air on the side of being and politely annoying and it really boils down to three core skill sets it's running comps and due diligence. Talking to motivated sellers and building connection with them. And then it's finding, vetting and managing land specialized agents. Every problem of somebody that I have coached over the last couple of years has boiled down to one of those three things. And a lot of the times it's the talk track. A lot of people really don't handle talking to sellers correctly. And it's pretty funny because it comes so second nature to some of us who've been in some form of sales business or business or and or sales you know it's kind of funny because for those of us who have some kind of background in sales or a prior business of some form or fashion talking to prospects comes second nature but for the vast majority of beginners it's not they are kind of of stuck in a world where the industry that they're coming from is you want to get a hold of somebody, send them an email or, you know, you don't want to bother people. And so having to reframe and relearn, no, in real estate, whether we're talking about agents or county reps or. Vendors or sellers, you need to err on the side of being politely annoying, pick up the phone, call them and not be afraid of that. And then also having like opportunity to practice. So, kind of zooming back out a little bit, kind of going more high level, Landmark Society, we have three programs. We have Greenhorns, which is kind of just for those that are, you know, kind of limited on working capital, but still want to be exposed to the community and kind of the live training events that we do and the Landmark Academy, our video library and all that. We have a once-a-month group coaching program. So we once-a-month meet, and it's a six-month program. And those are for greenhorns, those that are just kind of getting started. Then we have Pathfinders, which is kind of reserved for –. People who have maybe done a handful of deals, but they're just trying to shift in some form or fashion towards maybe a new market, marketing channel, strategy, what have you. And that's a three-month program that is kind of reserved for, hey, I don't have to teach you how to run comps and due diligence, but I'm here to give you kind of more high-level strategy and help you implement. Go to our automatic follow-up system to find your first hire, whether it's an overseas VA or a local in the States. And then kind of our flagship program is called Trailblazers. So Trailblazers is a six-month program, and it's full access, generally working with people who are just getting started all the way up to scaling. I would say 80% of our community are beginners, and 20% of our community are people who are experienced, and they're just looking to fine-tune or shift a couple things around. So during that, you know, in that every week we have three core sessions of the week. We have a sales mastery training where I kind of give an example of a talk track and then we break into breakout groups on Zoom where you get to meet other land mavericks and role play based on kind of the direction of that week's talk track. We have a foundations core session, which kind of cycles through the main tenants of the land business. And then on Fridays, we have a deal review party of the week where at the time of this recording, my wife joins me and people just kind of come first, first come, first serve, drop an APN in the county and we run comps and due diligence live and kind of showcase how we would generate an offer amount. Out so you know it's very uh it's very hands-on at a high level what we're trying to accomplish, and we still have our work cut out for us but what we're trying to accomplish is providing everything that's needed for you to thrive as a land investor going from all the way from the absolute bottom of getting started all the way scaling to the top where you're doing 100k months or. So of those three things you mentioned, so which is the one where you're basically like a fractional COO of sorts and you're kind of working alongside them? So that would be in Trailblazers and in Pathfinders. It manifests slightly different because the objective, the goal is a little bit different. Again, with Pathfinders, we are helping people who already are established in some form or fashion in the land business. And then we're just trying to help them go to the next level. But trailblazers starts from generally from ground zero and builds all the way up yeah and i will say that's that's pretty unusual in a very cool way like i don't think i've ever had a coach that like would actually get into the weeds with me like getting their hands dirty in my actual business i just yeah i don't know that that uh yeah i don't even know if you'd call that coaching it's like uh again like a fractional coo or see something uh where somebody's like really there uh looking over your shoulder, doing everything with you, making sure you get it. So that's pretty special. I'm very passionate about it. I make a lot more money. At least my family makes a lot more money actually just doing land deals. And sometimes it would be more simple for me to just be in the trenches doing my own deals. But I believe it's a calling on my life and what I'm supposed to be doing. And for the foreseeable future, I don't think there's any looking to the right or to the the left it's just land maverick society and continuing to bring more and more resources to the table to help people really get breakthrough in this business because it's an incredible business model and you do have to work hard and it's not all sunshine and rainbows there are days where you had five contracts out and then all of them fell through all abruptly and it's just demoralizing you got to have kind of a strong head on your shoulders to kind of navigate through some some of the emotional ups and downs. But if you put your hand on the plow and you commit yourself, anybody can do this business. I mean, I really want to emphasize that. And I don't mean to my cog here, but this is worth saying. Our logo at the Land Maverick Society is of a tortoise. And that's very intentional because I didn't graduate college. I was a college dropout. I was the first out of five sons on my dad's side to graduate high school. I pretty much perpetually failed. I don't have the same story as the sexy Ajay Sharma's out there. Ajay's one of my best friends, so I can get away with saying that. Where, you know, within this first five deals, he made like $300,000. I pretty much failed forward my entire 20s. My land business was a side hustle for a good five years or so before we finally figured it out. I often tell people me and my wife just held on long enough for it to finally figure itself out. Now, if you were to ask me what I think is the number one key to success is just not quitting. And no matter how many times you get demoralized and you want to quit, you just start afresh the next day and take every ounce of feedback is like, how can I improve? How can I get better? I mean, I literally, I was a managing broker for the state of Indiana. I took my license test for becoming a realtor five times. I had to go five days consecutively over and over and over again. And I'm not special. I don't think that I'm the smartest or greatest or any of that. I just know that if you don't quit and God is on your side, it will work. Work if you dig in your heels and you have the resolve that I'm going to figure this thing out and you grab the tunnel vision, don't get distracted and really go all in. That is the key to success. So if I can do this, you can do it too. Earlier, just going back five or 10 minutes, you had mentioned kind of these big three things that people need to figure out how to do well, which is running comps and due diligence, talking with motivated sellers, and then finding and managing land specialized agents. I'm curious in your experience with that, which of those those things do the most people have the most trouble with and like what is wrong there like what are the problems that people are encountering like what are they doing wrong that you help them figure out comps 100 yeah the hardest part of land is comps because even conventional banks rarely will fund on land that's just vacant unless it's tied into like a builder's. Loan where somebody is going to put a structure on it. Even professional appraisers, like property appraisers, really struggle to wrap their head around land. It's really hard. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. But the big key to solving it is having multiple data sources. So I've heard a lot of people talk about in the name of optimizing or streamlining their business system, just using a go-to source like Redfin or Priced or take your pick, land.com, whatever. But that's not sufficient because different databases, different sources of data will conflict. So if you just stick with one, you can skew your results and be overly optimistic or overly pessimistic. You need to have a suite of resources. Like in our business. We use PropStream, Redfin, Zillow, Datatree sometimes, and we'll use land.id because people don't often know, but if you click around land.id, oftentimes if you see an adjacent vacant land parcel, it will oftentimes show what they bought it for and when it sold. So you can actually get comps from land.id and other sources, even in non-disclosure states like PropStream, you oftentimes can get MLS solds within a non-disclosure state. So having a wide spectrum of data and then learning how to factor in outliers and remove them from your analysis. That's crucial. Yeah, the comp thing, I think it kind of varies depending on the vacant lot in the market and how much data is out there. Some markets and some properties, comps are pretty easy to find. But I was on Priced about a week ago looking at this beachfront property right on the coastline, literally on the beach. I ran that into the Priced comping tool. And usually what I've seen is Priced will overvalue a property, but in this case, it undervalued it by a lot. And when I clicked on the comp report and looked at all the different parcels in it, it was basically just factoring them in the local area and then properties that had recently sold or were for sale based on that size. But like more than half of the comps that picked were not on the beach. They were like, you know, a mile and lender. Just basically, they didn't have that feature, which is a huge differentiating factor. It has everything to do with why that property would be worth more. But a handful of these comps were on the beach. So it was just a matter of understanding, okay, those are not appropriate comps. Kick them out. These other ones, they are because they're like just down the beach. It's like right there. It's pretty much the same thing. And sometimes it's just like, I call it common sense, but for somebody who's never done this, maybe it's not common sense. But just looking at stuff like that and being able to think critically and be like, nope, those don't belong on there. I'm not paying attention to those and sort of rerunning the comps based on that. And of course, sometimes you'll get situations where there literally are no comps that are like perfectly appropriate. But I think that's when I have the most trouble is when there just isn't a similar property like this. You can take other ones that are half the same, but half very different. So what do you do with that? How do you use that and then back into a reliable, trustworthy number? What would you do in that case if there was truly no comps out there? How do you make that leap and go out on a limb? I would do a lot on the front end. I would look at maybe even higher acreage than kind of the ideal acreage range for my subject property. I would look at maybe two years of sold data or three years of sold data. I would do quite a bit, but if I really got to the end of the line, my catch-all would be to just reach out to a land specialized agent. Agent for... Yeah, I think that's huge. If you can find one, the one that you really trust. That is kind of an unfair advantage if you have somebody that truly understands that market and has done enough of those deals to be confident. And you have to be really good at vetting land specialized agents because there's a big difference between an agent that has a land listing and a local land specialized agent. But you really need to make sure you compare apples to apples as much as possible because to your point on waterfront property, you can be in a particular subdivision where waterfront property goes for higher than an adjacent mile away subdivision on the water. Like there's a lot of nuance that goes into it. So that whole thing on a land specialized agents and finding one that's actually experienced and knows what they're talking about. So that's a big deal. And I'm wondering because, I mean, there's a certain amount of information you can find about these people online before you reach out to them. But, you know, all the accolades in the world, all the listings in the world still is not a guarantee that they're going to be perfect or the best or anything like that. Sometimes you just have to start working with them to find out what they're really made of. It's kind of like hiring any person, but I'm wondering when you think back to experiences you've had where you found a land specialized agent and it didn't work out that well, it turned out like, oh, they're not really as good as I thought. Can you kind of like reverse engineer that and figure out, okay, like why weren't they very good? Or what could I have seen if I had asked the right questions on the front end? Or what should I have been looking for to uncover this truth about them? Is there any way to make your vetting process more reliable so that when you actually sign a listing agreement with them, you can be more confident that they're actually going to know what they're doing? Any thoughts on that? Yeah. So I would address it in, I feel like there's kind of two questions in there. One is what on the front end, before I reach out to a land specialized agent, are certain key parameters and things that I look for that give me a high my indicator that they would be a good agent? And then what do I do once I have hired a new land specialized agent and thought that they were good and they turned out not to be good? And what are those KPIs? Am I understanding you correctly? Yeah. Yeah. And I think the things for vetting that agent, I mean, you wrote a whole blog post about it. I can link to it in the show notes just so people can kind of see what that whole thing looks like. But when things don't turn out that well, what went wrong? Why weren't they as good as you thought? And is there anything that could have been done on the front end to be like, oh, that's going to be a problem and here's why. Or maybe there is nothing. I don't know. Maybe you just have to try it and see. What are your thoughts? I really try to look at data. Data is, the tell-all. So when I am approaching for canvassing for a new land specialized agent, I want to look them up online and I want to look at their current and past listings. So different listing websites like Zillow, Redfin, Realtor.com, even there's a new one that is a fantastic source for agents called land search not land watch or land.com but land search that entire platform is kind of land specialized and it's not the cure-all because sometimes you have certain areas where that people aren't really using it and so you still have to kind of go through the trenches of like you know randomly looking at different zillow profiles online and all that. But I want to find somebody who either has a land listing near my subject property. And has good quality listings. So very thorough description, really high quality pictures. And then I'm going to look them up and see, are there at least 30% roughly, 30% land to other types of real estate are they specifically mentioning land oriented things in their description like i live on a farm or i have chickens and cows or they literally have a picture of them in camo with a buck that they just shot like you know those are the things that you kind of it's stereotyping a little bit but there's a culture there's a culture to land and it's rule rule, conservative, nature, all that. So if you can look at those things, and then when you identify one, then handle the talk track correctly. And you use certain industry-related terms like perk test or slope, like these type of just kind of run-of-the-mill, normal, everyday conversations that we have, that's a foreign language of somebody who's not in our industry. So intentionally bringing those things up, you can kind of gauge and vet them. You can also just point blank ask, have you ever worked with other investors like myself? You know, this is kind of my business model. And I do, I will say circling back to what people struggle with. I think the first is comps. The second is talking on the phone and it kind of hits both sellers and agents because you need to use a lot of finesse to do it correctly and to have it really be a favorable outcome in both cases, both with agents and with sellers. But yeah, so that's what I would look in on the front end. Now on the, if I had. Thought that they were great and I hired them and I listed with them. Again, going back to data, how many views am I having on my Zillow listing? How many actual walkthroughs are we having? How much calls are we having? And funny enough, the times that come to mind when I had a really dismal experience with an agent. On the front end, they were selling me so hard. They were like, oh yeah, I always treat my clients the absolute best and I'm going to make sure that you're number one priority and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And then after they got the listing, they just kind of threw it on the MLS and that was it. Whereas a good agent, oftentimes it's just a lot more detail-oriented. A prime example, there's one deal that I was looking at in New Mexico recently where I sent an agent a property and she's like, oh, I know that lady. She actually tried to sell her property for double what she's selling it to you for. And just so you know, no houses can be developed on that street. There's some kind of weird thing going on with the zoning that I would have never known about ever without talking to the agent. So, and like they're just in their emails that they're sending back to me. It's just like, Like, it's so thorough with really not only just like a regurgitation of the comps that's on the MLS, but like, you know, hey, here are the, you know, comps. I wouldn't use this one and this one because of X, Y, Z. But I think these ones are really solid because of ABC. Those type of things are invaluable. And what I, you know, one story that comes to mind with a land specialized agent that didn't end up working out. They sold me on a, it was in Pueblo County, Colorado, and they seemed super awesome. We connected on a bunch of stuff. And after about three months. Why haven't we sold this property? This property is great. It's in a great area. And after pressing the agent, come to find out the guy didn't have MLS access to Pueblo County. He had access to an adjacent county's MLS. And so he just was like fronting the whole time trying to get this listing. And I was like, what are you doing? So like I promptly let him go. And oftentimes you have a six month listing agreement and technically like you can have to navigate those waters carefully. But generally, if you ask an agent, hey, I'd really like to just take this off the market and sign the cancellation, they're going to just honor it. Technically, they could give you some pushback, but I have never had an agent do that. But all I did with that property, I found a land specialized agent in the right county that had MLS access. We sold it in a month. So you partner with people on deals. Is that right? How does that work? Do you like fund deals for people or do you like uh you buy it together or what does this partnership look like yeah so for our active members so if you're an active paid member of the land maverick society we will fund all of your deals if you want us to uh pretty much the parameters are, uh 15 000 acquisition or higher uh with a list at a multiple generally so if we buy at 15 you You know, we're on a list at 30 and, you know, buy at 30, list at 60, and so on. The reason why we don't open up the floodgates to the industry at large is all of our members have been trained on how to identify, at least on the high-level, bare-bones, basic approach of what we call a deal versus, you know, just something that's going to be a waste of time. People who submit deals to underwriting for funding, none of them are covered in wetlands, landlocked, and at a 95-degree slope. They already know a little bit, so it's not going to be a bottleneck on our time where we're just constantly running through the hamster wheel of underrunning a bunch of deals that are not viable deals. They also are going to be trained on how to handle the conversations a lot better. And we always make it so that there are three things required to submit a deal to underwriting a signed copy of the signed purchase agreement a agent opinion of value and the agent's phone number and then a completed thorough due diligence questionnaire that walks them through how to reach out to the county and ask a bunch of due diligence questions related to setbacks and perk tests and a bunch of stuff and so they do a lot of the groundwork for us you know on the underwriting side. And I don't make it where it's a forced thing where people have to use us for funding. But for a lot of beginners, it's kind of a security blanket in a lot of ways because, you know, they feel like, hey, if, you know, Jaron and Asea, and really it's just my wife is the senior underwriter. She makes the call at the end of the day. You know, if they think it's a deal, then it's for sure a deal. We generally buy at 50 cents on the dollar, but if it goes up to 250,000 acquisition or higher, we normally default to a 60-40 split in our favor. Between 15,000 and 250, it's a 50-50 split generally, but we're starting to loosen up our parameters more. It's kind of case by case right now. We haven't land exactly in a nice box with a bow on top how this looks, but we are trying to fund on thinner margins if our member will put up some of the capital themselves or if it is thinner margins a higher split in our favor so i'm trying to i'm the advocate for the members so i go to these tortoise capital group is what it's called and it's an entire funding company solely designed and created to support our members and and funding our members deals but i always go to bat and be like, Hey guys, we should never deny anybody ever. We should always just counter and say, we would approve you based on these conditions because there's a, I cannot tell you how many 20,000, 30,000, $50,000 spreads we've walked away with, walked away from because it's not a buy at 50 cents of the dollar. You buy a property at a hundred thousand and you list that at 135. Maybe sell 120, that's $20,000 that just got left on the table. But it's hard to navigate. The water is there because to some of your points earlier that you brought up, Seth, like you do need to have a certain like margin of error to make sure that if you're wrong and the agent's wrong and everything's wrong, that you're not going to lose your shirt. Even if you lose a little bit of money, you don't want to lose more than like a thousand bucks because it's not fun. It's not fun to lose money. Yeah, I know. It's interesting, though. Like you mentioned, I don't know if you said security blanket or something like that. It's nicer to have a funder in the deal or somebody to look over your shoulder and say, I believe in this deal so much that I'll put my money into it. I would love to have that even now. There's certain deals that are just, in my mind, they just seem huge. And I just don't want to put my money on it. What if I end up being wrong? Even if I'm sure about it, it's just helpful to have somebody else to review it and not just say, yeah, that looks good, but say, that looks so good that I'll invest my money into that thing. And then you don't have to put your money at risk at all. Like that's a huge benefit. I think some people, they miss that when they think about working with funders. They just look at the cost of, man, my cost of funds is so high because I, you know, I'm giving up half the profit. And to that, I say, first of all, your cost of funds is zero because you're not putting any funds into the deal. But also like, think of the security you get from that. Like you don't have to put your own money at risk. Like if this thing blows up and goes horribly wrong, it's not your money. like it's really great to get somebody else with the means to invest in that kind of thing. And especially somebody who's not just a funder, but also like a land investor. And they can really understand like, or you can understand that they believe in it just as much as you do. That's a big deal. I agree. And. At least in our case, we also carry our weight because once you get a deal approved for funding, we handle all the disposition. So we are working with the agent. We are making sure that things are moving, putting pressure on the agent if we need to. We also oftentimes will cover the cost of due diligence. It's kind of case by case, but oftentimes we'll cover the cost of a survey or we'll cover the cost of PERC tests. Sometimes kind of our default is to have the member put up the money for a perk test. And then if it approves, we will reimburse them on the acquisition side and then reimburse the company on the disposition side before we disperse proceeds. But it's pretty phenomenal to have $0 into a deal and have no real risk and then be able to get 50% of the upside, especially when you're not doing anything on the dispo side. So, so Jaron, I know some people out there may be listening to this and maybe they're like me where I just didn't have the money in the beginning to hire a coach. Like the money just wasn't there. I had to figure it out on my own. Uh, or maybe like they're going to hire a coach at some point, but not now. Or maybe there's another coach that they're looking at. Just curious, your thoughts being somebody who's a coach or fractional CEO or whatever we want to call what you're doing. Do you have any recommendations? Like if somebody doesn't work with you, what do you suggest they look for in a good coach? Like what would be some green flags, some red flags? Like what should they be asking that coach before they get any further with them? Well, before I answer that question, I want to address a couple of things you baked into kind of your explanation there. Most people should not be getting into paying a coach or a course or what have you until they have a certain baseline of financial setup. Learn that the hard way. So, you know, I definitely drank the Kool-Aid on like, you know, just hustle through it and fake it till you make it. And like, you know, get on credit cards and la la la. That's a bunch of nonsense. How much cash do you think they should have? Like, I know that's actually a good point. I'm glad you brought it up because like the land world has changed a whole lot since when I got into it. You do kind of need a little bit more money now, I think, than you used to. So like, what do you think is a baseline? Have at least this much. Any thoughts? Yeah, I think you should at least have $10,000 to $20,000. I think if you really want to strip it down to the absolute minimum needed to get a deal, if you have a hustle, you can get for $100, you can go to Deal Machine. And there's a lot of errors and a lot of things, at least at the recording of this video, with DealMachine as it pertains to land. But if you use land that has a full mailing address, it can work. And $99 a month gets you unlimited skip tracing, unlimited contacts, and you can use your cell phone and you can just start calling a bunch of people. And you can probably figure it out reading some blog posts at REtipster and watching the YouTube videos at REtipster. So you can bootstrap your way through it. But that should be a bootstrap. That should be a side hustle. And you should be making some real money from something, even if it's a job you hate. Because, I mean, I say that because I'm in a different vantage point. I have kids and I have a family and it is my moral responsibility to make sure that there's food on the table. But if you're a young guy, you know, in college or freshly out of college, for sure, like if you can take the risk, like go for it. You can get into double closing. You can get into, you know, reaching out to different funders that have, you know, like Drew Haney with Rooster Capital. You can figure out a path forward with very little money. But if you're really wanting to take this thing serious and build an infrastructure where you at least have one to two deals a month to four deals a month, you're probably looking at at least $20,000 and then needing to rely on a funder to be able to make that happen. And when you say that, are you making the assumption that like they're sending direct mail or using a particular marketing medium, like offering 50% on the dollar? Because I know a lot of these assumptions have a huge impact on how much you do end up needing. So any other? I was kind of doing a catch all. Now, I know a lot of people would start with direct mail. I do think all things being equal, direct mail produces the highest qualified leads. So they're easier generally. I mean, you have to do it right. But if you're in a market that can facilitate blind offers like a Florida, you know, it can be pretty streamlined. Florida is very high on the competition side right now. So maybe that's not the best route to go. But if you can make that work, I mean, you only boil down to three responses. Yes, no, or let's negotiate. So it's pretty streamlined there. But, you know, you take something like texting or cold calling or ringless voicemails, there's a lot more qualifying of the leads that you have to do on your side before. Like I look at texting, that's our predominant medium of marketing right now. We kind of categorize all responses as phase one, total responses, phase two, prospects, and then phase three, leads. Leads and leads are those that have in some form or fashion said that they're be willing to sell at a discount. So there's a lot of activity and a lot of kind of reading in between the lines and really trying to vet whether this response is a prospect. And then if this prospect is an actual lead and that takes a lot more kind of skillset, it takes a trained eye, trained ear and what have you. But, you know, I do think direct mail is getting more and more expensive. So I, my model, I kind of prefer to use it as kind of a sniper instead of like a shotgun. I'd rather shotgun on something cheaper like texting. But, you know, there's pros and cons. We'd really have to get into the nuances of everybody's unique circumstances and stuff to really land on what the right channel would be. But, again, you can do it for like $100 a month because you had just a cell phone and Google Sheets, you know, and you could just be going hard. Hard but you know to i think you can get do that to get to your first deal but to make it into a business you know that it has reoccurring uh revenue coming in every month and all that i think it's it's a little bit more of a bigger lift and so i think you're safer to have at least 20 000 you know 15 to 20 000 i think you can do it with 10 um especially if you go after cheaper properties that you might sell on terms or what have you but you know i think that you're going to be better off coming in around 15 to 20. And just a few random things I'll mention just to kind of support this conversation we're having. So we've got a blog post that I updated earlier this year, but it's called land investing. How much will it really cost you? And it gets into a lot of this nuance of like, how much should you have depending on what your approach is and what things you decide to spend money on up front versus not. Lots of stuff to talk about there. It's a huge blog post because there's a lot of things to clarify. But I'll put that on the show notes at retipster.com forward slash 195. You'll find a link to that. Also, if you are somebody who's into direct mail during the month of October 2024 only, ITI direct mail, they're already the cheapest direct mail outfit out there. But I was able to negotiate even cheaper pricing with them, again, just for this month. If you want to check it out, retipster.com forward slash ITI promo. And I'll put that link in the show notes as well. Well, again, retipster.com forward slash 195. Any notable member success stories come to mind when you think about the people who have been through the Land Maverick Society to date? Yeah. You know, this is the stuff that really gets me up in the morning to face another day, especially, you know, we all go through ups and downs. And the land business is not a get out of jail free card. Like you have your days where you're high and you have your days where you're low. But you know for me the thing that really gives me fuel to keep going and to be on top of the world like I would much rather have one of our members get break through then we just get another deal because I know how to do it and I get another deal and it's cool it's fun but I'm not like money motivated that way I'm very much like I think I at my core I'm a teacher because I just like I cannot tell you how excited I get so a couple stories that come to mind I'll I. Change up people's names, protect the privacy or whatever. But there was a particular gentleman that I have been working with for quite some time. And when he first got started, he really struggled with computers. He might listen to this at some point, so I won't be very sensitive to this, but you know, he really struggled even like copying and pasting was like, you know, using command V or, um, you know, command C on his keyboard was something that he just was still having to figure out i had to spend like the first probably month and a half two months just teaching them computer skills because we literally couldn't do anything because we couldn't navigate pebble or you couldn't navigate setting up direct mail all that stuff most coaches, wouldn't do that most coaches are like you know you gotta have a minimum of like five deals under your belt or have a certain level of experience and if they realize that it was going to be that much of a lift, they, you know, they would have just said, Hey, here's your money back. Sorry, you're not a good fit. But no, I just don't do it that way. And I, you know, again, I know more than anybody else, because I live with myself every day, all day, that if I can do this business, anybody can. And so I finally got to a point where I made a whole, like mini course, be like, watch all these random YouTube videos that I've put together for you. So that you can just learn some basic computer skills. And he went through them all and he learned them all. And we went through a handful of different direct mail campaigns and then, you know, trying some other stuff. And, you know, the talk, the way that he handled the calls with the sellers was needed a lot of work and needed a lot of love. And, you know, we just kept working at it, kept working at it. And eventually that clicked and he ended up getting a deal in Sevier County, Tennessee. It's on the market right now, you know, actively being sold. I think we're in our fourth month or so. But what I listen to is call reviews because, you know, I have a whole mechanism where our members can submit comp reviews and call reviews for me to say, yeah, you did it good or just provide feedback or whatever. And his calls are totally different. Like he's like a totally different animal. And it's just something that, you know, it brings tears to your eyes if I don't watch myself right here, you know, it just, it's so amazing. And there's been other people that have been, there was a lady that I was introduced by, Jessie Kuang over at REI Pebble that. Had given her entire life savings to some guru on what I call the enemy camp. I'll spare the names, but she came to me literally crying, saying, I've spent $30,000. I have no money. This is my entire life savings. And, you know, help. Will you help me? I had to put her on payment and said, we'll do something. And by the time we stopped working together, other. She had seven deals under contract and had worked out some niche strategy about figuring out how to target Canadian owners because she was based in Canada that had property in the States. So she had that point of connection and was off to the races. And I mean, over and over again, there's so many times where oftentimes there's some kind of a resistance or some kind of a hazing process when you first get started. Like it can take people several months to get to their first deal but then their second it comes in a day like there's something psychologically that people have to go through in order to to facilitate this business but then when it clicks it clicks and it's amazing i mean that's just the tip of the iceberg but man i've seen members. You know out of 2 000 units of direct mail there was a a couple like a not a couple but they were business partners, two ladies out of Israel and out of 2,000 units of mail, they got a deal that had over $100,000 in deal spread and it sold in like a month and a half. And like, just like, you know, it's over and over again, man. There's so many stories. I do a horrible job of collecting testimonies. I'm trying to really aggressively fix that because even if it's just for me to sit sit around when I'm old and gray with my boys be like let's listen to all these you know, it's just it's it just lights me up like nothing else yeah that's really interesting man. It's just, it's funny how these people come from a position of great difficulty or challenge. You know, you've got people who don't know how to use a computer or people who have lost their life savings through some other means, people living outside of the country. Things where like the odds are kind of stacked against them in some way, but they figure it out and do it well in a big way that changes their life. At the same time, you've got people who like don't have any of those challenges going against them, just kind of the usual, you know, hard things. And they give up like almost instantly or they, you know, in kind of the first little sign of resistance and they're done. It's just interesting, you know, how that whatever is making those people with the challenges succeed. There's clearly some difference in perspective or it's worth it to figure this out. It's kind of goes to show like the opportunities there. It doesn't mean it's going to be an easy road, but like people who are willing to go through those, go through the ringer. They're probably going to get there just a matter of whether they stick with it or not. Yeah it's i'm telling you the tortoise always wins the race i read the book i got at least got that one i got i got that life lesson down pat i'm the tortoise man and uh and i think in a lot of ways we're a tribe of tortoises i think in a lot of ways i don't know if uh i don't know me as like the community head or something attracts certain types of personality that are similar to mine but there's other fancier communities like i think you know rei optimize She has all the AI stuff and leading technology stuff, but there's something about, you know, the grit of, I don't care what it takes. I'm going to make this work. And then having me and our team to really support them in that, it gets them over the hump, as long as they don't throw in the towel. Because, I mean, that was me. That was me having to figuring it out in the trenches, you know, and I did eventually because I didn't quit. It so yeah man that's awesome um well jaren thanks for spending some time with me it's great to hear the update on what you've been up to great to hear your thoughts on the market and all the things we've talked about if people want to connect with you or find out more about land mavericks is it land mavericks.com or any other place they should go and check it out actually give me one One second. I have a special offer for everybody listening to this podcast here. So if you text the phrase REtipster.com, maverick so two words space between those re tipster space maverick to the number 219 419. 7797 again that's re tipster space maverick to 219 419 7797 i will give you a free 30 minute coaching call. We can talk about what your objectives are. Of course, we'll see if maybe there's in a soft pitch way, I guess, if there's an opportunity for us to possibly work together, got to make sure it's a mutual fit, you know, both ways, both for me and for you. But, you know, even beyond that, if you just have some things that you're trying to navigate through or need some advice, a free 30 minute coaching call with yours truly. Again, that's R-E-Tipster, not R-E-I-Tipster, R-E-Tipster, space, Maverick, M-A-V-E-R-I-C-K, to 219-419-7797. Sounds awesome, man. Appreciate you sharing that. Thanks again for being here. And yeah, if anybody wants to connect with Jaren, you know how to do that now. Thanks again, everybody, for listening. Again, if you want to see the show notes for this episode, it's retipster.com forward slash 195. That's where you can find links to everything we talked about here. And Jaren, thanks again, man. Hey, man, it was an honor and a true privilege. Again, Seth, as I said in the beginning of this interview, I owe you a lot. I owe Ari Tipster a lot. And I really, to the degree that we can continue to align whatever we're doing, man, I just hope you know I got nothing but mad love for you. And I'm down to do deals. I'm down to hang out. Just know you got a friend in me, man. Awesome. Appreciate that so much. Thanks, Jaren. See you, everybody. you.