The REtipster Podcast | Land Investing & Real Estate Strategies

Infinite Banking for Real Estate Investors w/ Danielle McKinley

• Seth Williams • Episode 249

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249: In this episode, I’m talking with intuitive money coach Danielle McKinley about money stories, contentment, and the infinite banking concept (IBC), a strategy I’ve personally used for the past five years.

(Show Notes: REtipster.com/249)

We dig into why her nine-figure software exit felt strangely empty, how childhood money trauma shaped her drive for safety, and how she created a “contentment filter” to build wealth that actually supports the life you want… instead of chasing numbers that don’t make you any happier.

Then we take an honest, non-pitch look at infinite banking:

  • What it is (in plain English),
  • How real estate and land investors can use it,
  • How it really compares to 401(k) loans,
  • Why banks quietly use the same strategy, and
  • How to avoid getting sold the wrong life insurance policy with huge commissions.

If you’ve heard about using whole life insurance as your “personal bank” for deals, but you’re confused or skeptical, this conversation will clear up a lot.

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Hey everyone, how's it going? This is Seth Williams. Welcome to episode 249 of the RE Tipster podcast. Today I'm talking with Danielle McKinley. She is an intuitive money coach who helps people master their money in ways that go beyond the traditional financial advice that most of us were taught. So Danielle has built and sold software companies, had a major nine-figure exit, and later realized that money alone was not creating the sense of purpose or contentment that she expected. And that realization caused her to do a deep dive into money stories and behavior and how our financial decisions either support our lives or they quietly undermine them. Danielle teaches several non-traditional finance strategies, including the infinite banking concept, which is something I've used myself for the past five years. And if you've never heard of it, this is a great chance to understand what it is and how it works and why some people swear by it and others say to avoid it. This is not meant to be a pitch. It's an honest look at a strategy that real estate investors talk about a lot, but often misunderstand. And it's also a chance to hear the pros and cons and the parts people rarely talk about, like some of the huge commissions that agents can earn and how to avoid being sold the wrong thing. We're also going to talk to Danielle about her contentment filter. It's a simple idea that helps people build financial plans that line up with the lifestyle they actually want instead of chasing numbers that don't really make them any happier. So with that, let's get into this. Danielle, welcome. How you doing? Hey, Seth. Thanks for the intro. That was awesome. I'm good. How are you? I'm doing really good. Yeah. Glad I got a chance to talk to you here. So first off, tell me more about this software company you built and sold. What kind of software was this? Yeah, it was a HIPAA and OSHA compliance company. So it was designed to solve for the problem that doctors have as they They get licensed, they open a practice, and they get going. And then they have all of this business stuff that they have to take care of that wasn't taught in school. And so it automated the process of becoming HIPAA and OSHA compliant, and then protecting them if they had an incident. And we dabbled in cybersecurity and things like that. So it was a really fun journey and taught me a lot that I now incorporate into the work I do today. What was your role in that? because I've actually been in the SaaS world myself this past year, and I've learned that I absolutely cannot do everything. So I'm wondering, what did you do in the company? So I wore a lot of hats, but as any startup, you begin to peel them off as you scale and grow, right? So I was fortunate enough to experience all levels, building out the customer experience, building out the sales force, helping really design the UI UX of the software and everything that needed to be in there. And then towards the end, I had three business partners. I really focused on managing our referral partners and helping that help feed leads to the team. But I got to experience a lot of all of it. What I will say to you in the SaaS world, you are going to experience a little bit of every hat. And that's a good thing because then you know how to build out that lane of your business and not run it yourself. Was I seeing that right? That you had a nine figure exit from this company? Yeah, that's correct. What does that feel like? Is that just like the high of all highs or so like this euphoric thing or what was that like for you? That's what we imagine, right? That's certainly what I imagined it would feel like in the building stages and working up towards it. You kind of picture this like champagne confetti moment of like, wow, and just feeling so fulfilled. And it was the total and complete opposite of that. It really felt like nothing. And I hate to say that, but is what led me to what I do now. So I'm forever grateful for it. And really it feeling like nothing is what led me on a journey to discover my own money story. And I didn't know that that was the journey that I was on when I was going through it. But for me, it didn't feel like at all what people picture it would feel in their head when they hear you say it or me say it or anyone else say it and when you envision it for yourself it was quite the opposite for me and that was really jarring and confronting and surprising and I knew that it was honestly was a wake-up call for me because I'm it should feel good. And I think that when you're walking in your purpose and you're doing things that really are aligned for you, it would feel like what we think it would in our head. It was just the opposite for me because I had a lot of work to do in understanding my relationship with money. Well, it's really interesting because I've heard from other people, I mean, not your exact story, but they've built up a real estate portfolio or a level of income where they just are kind of okay. And they almost lose their purpose. It's like, there's nothing really to struggle for anymore. Like I'm just kind of existing here, taking up space and psychologically in your situation, did it feel like nothing because you already had a substantial net worth? So it wasn't really moving the needle anymore. Like how could that feel like nothing? There's a certain level of income that you hit that you don't necessarily need more. Right. And so then you really wrestle with what impact am I making? How am I showing up? How am I serving? How am I behaving with my family? What's my nervous system look like, right? Because you get so obsessed with the thing. And it also comes down to like, not wanting to celebrate, right? So one thing I always like to be super transparent about is I didn't make nine figures. Okay, that was the exit. I had three business partners, we had a team, we shared with everybody on the team, we had expenses, we were bootstrapped, and I wasn't the sole owner of the company, right? So I didn't make nine figures. I imagine if I made nine figures, it might have felt a little bit different. But I think that we all individually have different relationships with money and a different idea of what we want our life to look like. It's morbid, but it's true. Like, what do we want people to say about us in our eulogy at our funeral? And for me, I had burnout. I dislocated my shoulder in my sleep in early 2021 because I had severe stage four adrenal fatigue. And it's like, what was I doing all of that for? Right? Was it for the money? Because that doesn't make any sense. So it was this huge, like confronting reality of we got to reassess what this looks like. So for me personally, and everybody's journey is very unique. For me, I was fortunate enough to be able to go into like a super, I call it my cocoon season, where I got to really explore, you know, why didn't it feel good? Why, what am I, what was I doing it all for? And in that journey, I discovered it was because of my money story. And I'll give you some context with that because I think it's really helpful. So when I was eight years old, I asked my mom to leave my dad. My dad is an alcoholic. He's got undiagnosed bipolar disorder, heavy, heavy drinker, loads of unresolved childhood trauma. And my parents fought a lot. And when I was eight, after a pretty rough fight, I went to my mom and I asked her to leave him. And she told me, honey, I would if I could, but I can't afford to care for you kids on my own. And it's like, even as I say it to you right now, like I can picture where we were and what it looked like. And I didn't know it then. And I only recently discovered it that that was like when I made a decision about money, when my money story was solidified. And it wasn't about what can you buy? What vacations can you take budgeting? It was about safety and choice and being able to stay or to go. And so it also is a blessing as well, because it lit my entrepreneurial flame. It made me an overachiever. It made me a go getter. I mean, when I sold my company, I was only 35 years old. That's insane. Right? But it was all rooted in this fear of protection. And my life is very different than what my mom and my dad's life was. And so it wasn't until I really put the pieces of the puzzle together to go, oh, wow, okay. That's why it didn't feel good. I was doing it for that, but it wasn't necessarily aligned and purposeful. Yes, we were making an impact. And yes, we were saving practices from losing their business if they had an incident and all of that good stuff. But it wasn't it wasn't the true meaning of like why God called me to this earth and discovering that I really feel like now I'm walking in my purpose and helping other people discover their money story, too. The thing you mentioned about your your mom not being able to leave because you couldn't support everything financially. Like that's a really solid example. But I feel like there's a lot of those examples that can be observed in the world, like the leader of a nonprofit who's kind of like bulldozed by the board to do something that he doesn't believe in or she doesn't believe in her pastor of a church that like if that pastor had financial freedom and could like leave if they really want to for whatever reason God calls them to but they can't because they feel stuck here there's so many things in life where it's like money would solve so many problems like like ethical problems sometimes like I don't have to keep playing this game that I don't believe in because I need a paycheck. Super important to figure that out. Money is the through line into everything that we do. So it truly is the foundation of everything that we're building. It shows up in the way that we show love, the relationships that we have, how we spend, how we lead, how we manage it, how we think and believe in ourselves to be able to make the impact that we want to make. And it's not something that is talked about. And that's why I talk about it, because it has this strange shame and there's so much emotion that's wrapped up into money in general. And we all have a money story and it's usually solidified in our childhood. And a lot of times we don't even realize that that story is what's running the show, which was made very clear in my journey of my exit and all the things that I did leading up to it. Until you're aware of it, it's really hard to shift your money mindset, which is what I call like your money muscle. And it's your present day, present feeling, present engagement with money. And if you don't know or acknowledge the story, because your money story is inherited, it's given to you. It's based off of things that you observed, modeling behaviors, what you saw your parents do with it, what you heard people talk about it. Like if you had a, you know, a rich uncle and they were greedy, that's a really common one. People with money are bad. There's all of these belief systems that are inherited, literally imprinted into a our subconscious. And if we don't stop to get to know them, it's really hard to shift our behaviors with money because we're unaware that those limiting beliefs or those stories are what are actually running the show. Do you think there is a right and a wrong version of a money story? Or is it just like, yeah, there's just a bunch of different ones out there and to each their own. And if there is a right and wrong, what is the right one? And how do I make sure my kids learn the right one, whatever that is? Yeah. So I don't believe that there's a right or a wrong one. I believe that there just is one. And the most, the right thing to do is to be aware of what yours is because we can't control what people observe or what really lands. And a lot of times we don't even realize, like sometimes when we think of like trauma, we think of it as this big, like impactful, super scary situation. And you can experience trauma just by observing other people's trauma. So the answer to your question is, I don't believe that there's a right or a wrong. I believe that there just is one and that as parents, because, you know, as a parent, every single parent can agree to this. We want to give to our kids better than what we had. And that is just human nature. Right. So being aware of what yours is and and educating your kids on it and educating them about money is already changing the trajectory by you showing, hey, like money is safe. Money is okay money is a good thing like I love money and that's okay to say it doesn't make me a bad person so first timothy six first ten says for the love of money is the root of all evil yeah is that wrong. I think that it depends on what you're doing with it. I think that it can be. If your only obsession is money and power and greed, then of course, right? The way that I say it, when I say that I love money is because I love teaching people about it. I love helping them build a better relationship with it. I help, I love helping them feel safe with it so that they can go out and do good in the world. It doesn't mean that my one true like North star is like more money, more money. And I think that that's what that verse is about. That's how I interpret it is that that verse is not wrong. It's what is your goal around it? I think it's okay to say that you love money when you're using money for good. Let's talk about this contentment filter. What is the contentment filter? Yeah. So this is something that I learned in my cocoon season. And it was really kind of, you know, it was epiphany moments where you're like, Oh, that's a really cool way to look at things. That was the contentment filter for me. So first, let me kind going to set the stage. So if you think about it before social media, before the internet. Our radius as humans for comparison was very small. It was our neighbors, the people we went to school with, where we traveled, our family and friends. And that was about it, right? But now with social media, every time we pick up this little guy, when we start scrolling, we immediately see somebody who is quote unquote doing better than us or man, they're crushing it, right? And then we start to believe what? We start to believe we're not good enough. They must be happier than we are. And we start to sort of spiral in our mind. And that's because we were never meant as humans to have this unlimited comparison filter, right? So the contentment filter is how you really anchor yourself in the world that we live in today and really pausing to define what is contentment. So one of my favorite books is called The Psychology of Money. It's by Morgan Housel. And he actually talks about this a little bit. And when we say we want to be more happy or we want more happiness, what we really mean is we want to feel more at peace, more content. Right? So the problem is most of us are walking around, scrolling on our phone, and then comparing our lives to what we see online. And that's causing us to feel less content and therefore less happy. So when we actually pause to define what does content mean to us, what is our contentment filter? What are we working towards? What is our why? And what is enough, right, for us to really feel happy and content in our lives. And so I, when building out like wealth strategies, for example, with clients, they're all unique and individual. You don't have to be a nine-figure exit. You don't have to be a gazillionaire to feel content, right? What you have to do is define what contentment means to you. So when people say like, what does success mean? I like to reframe it and say, what does content mean? Because if you don't know what makes you feel content, then no amount of success is ever going to feel right if you haven't stopped to anchor in that. So I like to start by defining what does content mean to you? What would make you feel the most content? And then we reverse engineer a plan around that. And then when you're scrolling your phone and you're feeling that comparison creep in, you go read your contentment statement and you anchor back into it. You come back to yourself and what is right for you, because there's always going to be comparison at our fingertips in the world that we now live in. Do you think there's ever a time when we should? Be comparing ourselves to others? Like when is it right or wrong to want what someone else has? Yeah. I mean, I think it's human nature, right? So I don't think that you can avoid comparison. I think it's a part of the journey we walk as human beings here on earth, right? I think that when you're comparing and beating yourself up, that's when it's a problem. When you're comparing and leveling up because you're looking up to somebody, you're inspired by what they're doing, you're hungry for knowledge and to grow and to better yourself, I think that then it's okay. But if you're spiraling and you're feeling bad about yourself or you're feeling those negative feelings, that's when you got to go back and anchor into it. And also recognize that if you're putting that person on a pedestal or you're looking to them as your mentor, probably not a good fit because a real mentor is going to build you up, make you feel good and show you that you can spread your wings and fly and not make you think that you need them, right? A good mentor helps you find yourself, helps you see that you have the answers within you, helps you see that you have the capabilities to take the action and to decide and to up level. So I think it goes both ways, but it's recognizing what is the feeling to know if it's good or bad. I think of like that Jim Rohn quote, you're the average of the five people you spend your most time around that kind of thing. So it's like that whole mindset is, is almost designed to be not content with who you are because you're trying to get better. You're trying to get like the people that you spend time around, right? It's this weird thing to try to balance because like, I totally know what you mean. There's times when it's like being discontent in comparing myself to others on social media, like it's just almost 100% head trash and messes with my mind and that kind of thing. But the other hand, it's like, how do I get better if I'm content with everything I have and where I'm at and all this stuff? It's almost like, where's that balance of the appropriate amount of discontent in my heart? I would like fully subscribe to the, you are the, I mean, it's, it's fact that you are the average of the five people that you hang around. So it's a matter of like, do they have a healthy relationship with success. With content, with where they're going? And how do you feel around them? It's the same as like, if I'm making a new friend, okay. And I'm enjoying hanging out with them. I literally, after a session of lunch or an activity or an event that we go to together, I will sit in my car before I drive and genuinely ask myself, do I feel drained or energized by that experience? Was it the environment or was it the person? And so it's about getting really disciplined about the way that you look at it and the people that you spend your time around. It doesn't mean that you're, once you have your contentment filter, it doesn't mean that poof, you're never going to compare yourself again. It's having a healthy relationship with comparison and recognizing when it's helping you or when it's harming you. What I hear you saying, it sounds like. There's feelings involved. Like, do I feel drained or energized by the person or that situation? Do you think your feelings can never lead you astray? I feel a lot of things that are not healthy for me. So it's like, how much should I really pay attention to the feelings versus just the cold heart facts? Yeah. So, I mean, we're energetic beings, right? So energy is a really great compass for movement. So if you're feeling drained the first time, don't write somebody off because you felt drained by them. Be aware of it. It's an awareness mechanism. Now you can go, huh, that was interesting. And a lot of times we, after an experience with someone or going to an event, we just go on autopilot. We hop in our car, we call our spouse or our bestie or our mom, whoever, right? And we cruise home and we go about our life. We're not taking a moment to be consciously aware of the experience that we just had and to start to just pay attention to whether it's serving you or not. And so it's about getting in relationship with those feelings and with those energies, not necessarily the first feeling that you have of that dropping people. It's being aware of it and recognizing, am I continuing to feel that way? Or was I, to your point, just having an off day because I had a lot on my plate and I'm drained by the entire day, not necessarily the experience I just had with that person. So it's important to, one, start to bring that awareness in of how do I feel? And then start, when you're having the negative responses, ask yourself to continue to pay attention when you're around that person. And the more experiences you have with them, then you'll know if it's them or you or an off day. I know there is research, it's probably changed over the years, but there's research showing that income over a certain level does not make a person any happier. Do you know what that income level is in the US right now? And how does that tie into your contentment filter? Yeah, so last I checked, it was 75,000, which I can't agree with because I feel like that's barely keeping your head above water in some spaces. I think that, I don't know that I subscribe to that, to be honest with you, because it, That is looking at not, it's really averaging everybody out. And we're all different people. We all have different experiences. So that's why I really land in the contentment filter. Because if you say you want a million dollar house, you want to be able to take seven vacations a year. You want to be able to say yes to things without worrying about, you know, what your budget looks like. And I don't even like budget. I call it the jobs that you assign your dollars, that is going to require more than $75,000, right? So I believe that the number is a variable based on what you want out of your life. The important thing to start with is to define what you want, because so many of us are walking around chasing something that we don't even like, we don't pause to go like, why are we doing this? What is our why? Right. And because somebody else is doing it or we see the shiny new object or we're like, oh, they're in my industry and that's working for them. I'm going to throw everything that I was doing and I'm going to try that. And then you keep doing that in a vicious cycle. All good things take time. So if you're just rinsing and repeating. Right. And then you're chasing things and you're lost. Like I call it the train. Right. What's your exit? What exit do you want to get off on? And have you missed it? And if you've missed it, it takes so much longer to get back to your destination, to the destination that's right for you. So rather than saying like, hey, this is the number, I think that it's based on what is the life that you want to create and have you really stopped and paused to define that for yourself? Because the cool thing about the world that we live in today is we can change things at any time. The secret sauce to everything is deciding and then taking action. It's that simple. And your story about your exit from the software company, how it didn't mean much to you. So basically, it didn't mean much because you hadn't figured out your why yet, or you hadn't really gotten to the bottom of your reason for all of your work? Yeah. So the reason that it felt empty to me is because I built it up in my head that it was going to feel a certain way. I realized that I wasn't making the kind of impact that I wanted to make. When I really paused to think about what would people say about me at my funeral, it was jarring and confronting. And I realize now that that journey was my training ground. I had to go through that experience in order to acquire the knowledge that I now have that I can use to help people build a good relationship with money. Feel good in their why, and really bring their dream life into reality. I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do now. So I am incredibly grateful for that experience. But the reason it was empty is because I wasn't yet walking in my purpose. I was chasing money for safety. And the reality is, is that I was already safe. While I was building the company before the exit and the exit didn't make me feel any more safe because I was already there. So my relationship with money was the reason that it didn't feel like fireworks, right? It was an accomplishment and I'm proud of it. So don't get me wrong there. I'm absolutely proud of it. And it's credibility, right? It's, it is, I have experience with money. So I teach from a different lens. I'm not a CFP. That's my husband's job. I teach from an experience with it. It's just interesting because I have been in this place before and I've known many people where like they didn't realize they were chasing after this imaginary thing that wasn't going to, give them this big high that they thought they would get when they got there. But they didn't really know until they got there. And for many people, getting there doesn't happen until like way later in life. Is there something a person could do like right now when they haven't gotten there yet to like sort of test themselves? Like, is this actually what I want? Like, how do I examine my whys to figure out like, am I even on the right track or am I just kind of chasing after this fake thing that's not really going to do anything for me? Do you know of anything like that? You're already starting it just simply by questioning it and pausing from the autopilot and really spending some quiet time asking yourself, you know, like if you're listening to this and things are resonating with you, you already are feeling confronted by, you know what? I might not be walking the right path. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to like disrupt your whole life and change things. Let's just spend some more time with why do I feel that way? Maybe it is just pulling back. Maybe it's not putting the pedal to the metal. Maybe it is implementing some systems so that you have more free time to be with your family. Maybe it is a completely different pivot and completely different career. And it's the one that you think about that keeps you up at night that you're always daydreaming about. If that's happening, that's a good indication that you're not walking what you're supposed to be walking here on Earth. And that's OK. It's the hardest part about it is there's all these expectations and family dynamics are different. Friend dynamics are different. And one of the main reasons that I see people staying stuck is out of the fear of what other people are going to think. And that is a recipe for regret on your deathbed because those people aren't going to be around. Who cares about them, right? And it's this social media and the fact that like personal branding and being out there is such a big thing. And it's something that I do. It's something that I encourage, but that it just intensifies that pressure of what are people going to think? And the reality is until you can get comfortable with you being the only one that actually matters what you think, that's the place you got to be in to ultimately be content. And it's a tough journey. It's not an easy place. And it's something that, you know, I'm still working on daily. But that is where I believe the unlock for true peace and true contentment really lives is when you stop abandoning yourself, you really stick to your boundaries and you look to answers within versus outsourcing. Yeah. Do you think it's an overstatement to say that money isn't even the issue? You could get paid nothing or very, very little, but... If you're making the impact you want to make, if you love your work, if you can't wait to get started in the morning on what you're doing, that's kind of worth more than any amount of money. If you actually are doing what you were put on this earth to do, right? Or is there a point where like, no, the money kind of does have to be there to some point. I think that if you're waking up jazzed about your day and you're hopping out of bed and you're like living it up and you're happy and you're having your coffee, that is priceless. Okay. So I always ask specifically, I work with entrepreneurs. So I asked them, you know, how many of you became an entrepreneur because you wanted more time freedom, more flexibility to make a bigger impact or all of the above? Okay. Most people say all of the above. The problem is sometimes when we get going and we're, money is required to do those things. Right. But once we get going and we're making the money, we lose track of like, those were the things that got us into this industry in the first place and we're working 80 hours a week and we're not making the impact. We're not showing up for our family. We're not serving in our communities. And that's where we got to make an adjustment because the reason you started, like that's you being off track. That's you missing the exit because you started the thing because you wanted those. So what we need to do now is zoom out and reverse engineer our steps, our goals, our day-to-day to get us back on track. Well, let's pivot a little bit and talk about the infinite banking concept. Hard left. Yeah, hard left. We got to do it at some point, though. So infinite banking concept, I remember when I first heard about this, it took me quite a while to grasp what was going on. So to the extent that you can, just in plain English, what is the infinite banking concept? The easiest way to understand it is instead of taking a loan out from a bank, you take a loan out from yourself. And it is a way to stop meeting the system and to turn your money away. Turn your dollars, like $1 into $2. So I'll give you kind of a model. And if you're watching this, it'll be helpful. I usually like to draw this out on a whiteboard, okay? And first, actually, let me back up. So the reason why I teach infinite banking now is because I did not know about this strategy when I exited my company. And I would have done a lot of different things with my money had I known about this strategy then, okay? So fascinated by it. and let's just say that you have $100,000. You pour in $100,000 into a properly structured whole life insurance policy and now you wanna buy an investment property. Two days after you open this policy, so you have $100,000 right here, you can pull out 80,000 to buy that investment property, okay? But your $100,000 that's right here is still growing at an average of six to seven and a half, eight percent, depending on how it's structured, okay? The loan on your $80,000 that you took out is anywhere from four and a half to five and a half percent. So what does that mean? You're still net new money on your $100,000 because the way infinite banking works is that $100,000 never left your policy. It's still accruing and compounding interest on $100,000. Now you've got this $80,000 in this investment property that you bought, And the key to infinite banking is being a good banker because you wouldn't buy this house with a bank and not pay the mortgage back to the bank, right? So you're the bank. So you buy the property, it's cash flowing, but you're paying back yourself as the bank and then you're rinsing and repeating on other ventures. So that is at its simplest how infinite banking works. Just out of curiosity, what if you didn't pay it back? What's going to happen to your policy? Yeah. So you don't have to pay it back. You have a certain term. But it is going to, after, depending on how they're structured. It could meck out, which means that you would owe taxes on the money. And if you pull out everything and you're not accruing enough interest to offset the death benefit, which is essentially the collateral, the policy could collapse. So you want to be really smart with how you're doing it. It's not a situation where you just take the money and don't pay it back. Because again, what would happen if you bought a car and you never made your car payment? It would be repossessed, right? If you bought a house and you never paid your mortgage, you would be foreclosed on. So the key to infinite banking and making it work the right way for you is being disciplined with your money and treating yourself like the bank. And so rather than paying interest to the bank, you're paying interest to yourself. Okay. The other really cool thing about this is that, and this is really great. I work with a lot of doctors on this, a lot of real estate investors is that if you're in a situation where you have high Sue possibilities, like doctors. The money that is in this is untouchable in a lawsuit. The other thing is that you're using that money tax and penalty free. So I do not teach or subscribe to just have an infinite banking setup. You want to have an overall complete wealth plan. So it's not like this is your one strategy. This is a piece of the puzzle that is really, really lucrative. And it's something that the 1% are doing. There are some people out there. Who hate this idea. They just think it's the most ridiculous thing in the world. I think Dave Ramsey is one of them. I've talked to other investment advisors that have very similar thoughts. And some of the feedback I hear from them is like, just take this money and put it in a 401k, put it in the stock market. And if you need a loan, take the loan from your 401k. And my understanding on that, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the key difference of this type of properly structured policy is that when you take a loan, it's collateralized by the money you have in the policy. You're not literally taking the money out. So the money continues to grow in the policy and it grows in whatever you invested into. So you're kind of like double dipping, like it's growing twice. And am I correct that with a 401k or basically anything else that you could take a loan from that doesn't happen? There's a lot of different ways you can structure these. And I think that some of the reason why there are some bad reviews, if you will, is that like any business, there's bad actors out there. And so if the agent doesn't structure it properly, it can not function the way that we just described. Right. But with, you know, to your point with a 401k, when you're taking the money out, so if you had a hundred thousand dollars in your 401k, let's just use the same model. You took out $80,000. That $80,000 is now over, over here in your real estate investment. And I only have $20,000 right here. And you're penalized because you're, you have early access to that money because you, when you put the money in, you got a tax break, but you're early accessing it because you're not up to retirement age. So not only are you paying interest, you're also paying a penalty. Okay. So that's the, that's the big difference. Now I recommend that you have a 401k, like you, you want to have diversification always. You don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket, but the infinite banking model allows you to actively use your money and grow your money at any age. You can start this at any age. And it's the use of the money, the funnel of the circle of taking money out to buy an asset that's cash flowing to put it back in. That's all tax and penalty free. And it's a very protected asset. Why do you think there's such a strong divide on this? People like Dave Ramsey like this, he does not understand it. Or is it like, perhaps this is something that more highly sophisticated people will actually do. The average consumer, like they're not going to mess around with all this stuff, taking out loans. Like they probably should just put it in 401k. Just trying to understand like, why is there such like strong opinions on both sides of this? Yeah. So remember, I told you, I didn't even know about this when I had my exit. Okay. I didn't know about this. It wasn't something like my tax strategist was telling me about when I discovered it. I was like, why isn't everyone talking about this? And it is complicated. So it's hard to explain. And for people to understand, it sounds too good to be true. Right. When you do hear it, you're like, yeah, right. That's how I was. I was like, this can't be possible. And I just kept digging and I kept researching. And it's also not like the traditional path of what people are taught. So I think that to one, it's just a lack of knowledge and understanding. So like I am full disclosure, a nationwide life insurance agent. So I've gone through the training, I've read the books, I've done all the things like Nielsen Nash is the creator of infinite banking. It's a great resource to start to understand he's the one that came up with it and banks are using it. So if you look up BOLI, it's B-O-L-I. It stands for Bank Owned Life Insurance. Seth, have you ever noticed how banks have a lot of vice presidents? Yes. I used to work in banking and there's tons of them. So many. So I remember, and I was giving the guys crap about this. So when I had my software company, we're a vendor with this oral surgeon organization every single year. And we were always next to the Bank of America booth. And there would be like eight Bank of America reps there. And they all said VP. So I'm like, everybody, you're a VP. You're a VP. You're a VP. Like, why is everybody a VP? I didn't even know this then. Well, banks use this same model. So if you look up BOLI, B-O-L-I, you will see that it'll tell you which banks have these bank-owned life insurance plans. And in order for you to get a whole life insurance infinite banking model like we've been talking about, you can't insure a business. You have to insure an individual. So the reason that there are so many VPs is they have to be executive. That's the lowest entry point of executive, right? And so the banks are actually taking out loans on their employees, and they're using this same model with the money that you're giving the bank. So when you start to discover these types of things, and you start to really understand the protection of the asset being there, and getting something that's properly structured, it's a win. Now, what I can tell you about the life insurance world is. Is that this is a more complex structure. So most agencies aren't teaching their agents this. So they don't even know that it's available to offer because they're not being taught about it. And I've got firsthand experience with that because when I was first looking into this, I had gotten educated. I read the Nelson Nash book, heard a bunch of podcasts about it. I knew what I was looking for. I talked to my existing life insurance agent who had sold me a term policy in the past, explain what I want to do. And he was basically pushing really hard to sell me the wrong thing. And thank the Lord, I knew it was the wrong thing. So I could actually identify that. But it struck me. I was like, well, first of all, I'm shocked that you don't know more about this, but also that you are so confident in pushing so hard. And if I didn't know what I was talking about, I would totally buy the wrong thing from you. And I'm wondering, how can a person like me or anybody else out there who's thinking about getting into this, how do you know you're talking to the right person who's going to sell you the right thing? How do you look at this highly confusing policy and know like, oh, this isn't actually for me? Like what exact words should we be using to describe what we want to get the right thing? So that agent, they just may not have been aware. Like even for me, when I was new and green into this world and I first had this kind of land on my lap, I was like, this can't be it. Like you can't possibly do this. And so I don't think that it's necessarily the agent is trying to mislead you. And sure, there's bad actors out there. Don't get me wrong. But most of them, it comes down to, they just weren't taught about it and their agency or brokerage may not be giving them access to it because this specific type of policy agents make the least amount of money on because when it's properly structured, they are doing a minimum death benefit, max cash accumulation, and agents are only paid on the death benefit, the initial death benefit, not the growing death benefit, right? So that's another reason why it's not taught a lot is because term policies is where life insurance makes the most money. Okay. So to answer your question of what should we be asking, if you are wanting to get a. Infinite banking model set up, the very first thing that you want to ask the agent is how many infinite banking policies have you created? Because that right there, if they don't know about it, you're going to be able to sense, even if they try to like waffle and like scramble to try and, you know, get your business to tell you that they have, that's going to be a really good indication of it. And do some of your research. Like you're learning a lot by listening to this podcast even to ask, you know, how do you structure it? Are you structuring it with minimum death benefit, maximum max cash accumulation? That's going to tell an agent immediately like, okay, this person knows their stuff. They're not new to this world and phone a friend, right? Find somebody like myself or somebody else who does this that, you know, can really explain it and understands it and don't just work with anybody. You can shop around. You can make a few phone calls at phone a friend, ask Seth, who does Seth work with, right? And do it that way. But starting with how many infinite banking policies have you structured? Is going to help you weed out whether or not somebody knows that model. Earlier in this conversation, you were talking about how the infinite banking concept is like you're borrowing from and paying back yourself, right? But when you borrow from your policy and pay it back, you have to pay interest and that interest doesn't go to you, right? It goes to the insurance company. Yeah. So think about this. So remember the $100,000 is staying there and it's compounding at six and a half to 8%, depending on the carrier and the policy, right? And the loan, let's just say at the high end is five and a half percent, you're covering the loan and you're still making one to one and a half percent on your money that is there. So you're not actually like having to pay back the interest when you're being a good banker and you're making whatever asset you purchased, like you would for anything else, you're paying back the lender, which is you. But that five, five and a half percent interest, like that's not going to me, right? Like I don't just keep that in my account. That goes to the insurance company. Is that for facilitating a loaner? It's coming off of your compounding interest. Okay. So on a hundred thousand dollars at seven and a half percent, you're making 7,500. Okay. So instead you're making 1500 because you're using that $80,000 as your loan. Okay. But the difference is it's compounding on your hundred thousand dollars. So it'd be different if, if it like in a 401k, now your compounding interest is only on 20,000, right? So it's, it's not like anyone is necessarily getting it, they're just not putting in the full amount into your $100,000. It's offsetting the interest on the loan. And that 5% interest, that's not optional, right? You have to pay that. Yeah. And again, you're not paying it. You're getting your earnings minus it. Okay. I got you. I guess I didn't understand that part. Yeah. You're getting your earnings minus your interest on your loan. So your earnings are paying your interest and now you've turned $1 into two and you now have another cash flowing asset. That hopefully, right? I mean, it depends on what you're investing in. But if you're investing in a long-term rental and you've run the numbers properly, or there was, you know, it was already structured like that and your mortgage is $12,000, but you're charging them 1700, now you're making 500. And if you're a good banker, you could just put it all back in there so that then it increases your borrowing option again so that you can, cause you can borrow, depending on the carrier, you can borrow between 80 and 90% of your foreign amount. When I make a payment back to the policy, say I make a payment of a thousand bucks, there's nothing coming out of that thousand dollars that's going to interest. The interest is, I guess it's cut out of the earnings from the policy. Yeah, from the compounding interest on the policy. I got you, okay. So if you borrowed $80,000 and you put a thousand dollar payment back into your bank, now your balance is 79,000. I follow you. I guess I didn't realize that before. I learned something new here today. Yeah, good. So on that whole note of interest and that kind of thing, you mentioned if you use the money to do something that's going to pay you. So how should somebody responsibly use a policy loan? Like what should they not be borrowing money for? Like if I want to go out and buy a car, is that dumb? Because the car is not paying me money to pay back the cover of the cost? No, not at all. Not at all. Go buy the car. But you're the lender. You got to pay yourself back. So just because the car isn't appreciating in value, whatever the loan amount would have been, let's say it was 10% if you bought it under your business, right? So that you can get the tax break on it, which is how you should structure it. As long as it's over 6,000 pounds, then you're making that payment back to your policy. Okay. And that's a, that's a great way to double dip too, because you can take like right now in 2025, the 100% depreciation is back for vehicles that are over 6,000 pounds. So it's a great time to go buy a new car and to do something like that, where you're really like triple dipping on the money, right? So if you opened a policy, then you use the money to go get your car and you took the 100% depreciation on the vehicle. And then you just made the payments back to yourself to rinse and repeat on the next thing that you want. I have heard stories about people who do like policy stacking, where they start with one policy, then they end up with a second one and a third one. Why is that happening? And how is that happening? Is it like they have to actually make the decision to, I want to start buying policy number two now. Is that because they took out all the money from their first one? How many understand what is policy stacking and why do people do that? So let's back up because there's basically three main types of policies. There's term, there's IULs, and there's whole life insurance. And those three types can be structured a million different ways. Policy stacking can happen for a number of reasons. It can be depending on what your goals are, right? Is your goal to be infinite banking or is your goal to just be protected? Okay, let's pretend it's like just to be protected. So in that scenario, the reason that you would policy stack is because. It is a way to get a high death benefit now while you have, maybe you have two homes that you have mortgages on. You have family, your kids are going to go to college, you know, you're thinking future planning. So in that scenario, you would use a term policy stacked with either an IUL or a whole life insurance policy because those both come with permanent protection, which means that no matter when you graduate, because I don't like to say when you die, no matter when you graduate, then you have a payout. Okay. Now, the stacking of the two. So term policies, I don't write any term policies that don't come with living benefit. Living benefits are a way to access your death benefit while you're alive should you have a critical, chronic, or terminal illness. And you can use up to 80% of the death benefit. So I had a client that was in a car accident that was in a coma for 24 days. And she had a million dollar policy. She was a business owner. She filed a claim. Her husband filed a claim for her three days in, and she got a check for $800,000. Okay. That's the power of having a properly structured plan to protect you as the biggest engine of your life. Now, she also stacked a policy, an IUL. So an IUL is like, if you wanted to crawl, walk, run to infinite banking, an IUL is like you're walking. Okay. And it's there because you want permanent protection. For when you graduate, you want some living benefits, and you want some access, you want to diversify your cash accumulation and have some access to it, okay? And the reason that you stack is because permanent coverage is always more expensive. And term, as we age out of our term policy, whether it's 10, 20, or 30 years, we're going to have a lot of time. Our debts are hopefully driven down, right? We've paid off our homes, we've put our kids through college, so we don't need as much of a death benefit. And when you stack it with something that's cash accumulating at retirement, you could take the money and flip it into an annuity. You could use it to pay for a wedding. There's lots of different things you can do it. So stacking is absolutely a thing. It is something that is dependent on what are your goals and what you want to do. And same thing for like infinite banking, for example. In the infinite banking, when properly structured comes with a term policy, depending on like what you're pouring amount is, if you're really using it in the way that we've been talking about today, Seth, you're going to have a term policy attached to it for the reason of what's called mecking. So it becoming a modified endowment contract, you want to structure it so it doesn't meck, because if it max, then you owe taxes on your cash growth. Okay, so you have to have this great balance between like cash accumulation and the debt benefit that is like the collateral, if you will, in infinite banking. So that's a reason that it's stacked over there. And then it's also because you want a certain amount of coverage. Stacking is a way to drive down the premium that you have to pay, but get the right coverage and the right protections while you're alive. A lot of information. What questions do you have? Yeah, I guess the way that I thought of it was like, for example, I've got a policy. I think the death benefit is a little shy of $500,000 and I'm like halfway through paying it and it's a 10 year long process where I have to pay 15 grand a year for this thing. In my mind, that is little bank number one. If I want to bank number two, say I exhaust all the funds in the first one and I just, I want to do it again. But it takes like, you can't just, hey, I want this $500,000 policy. Let's put all the cash in today and I'm there. It's like, no, you got to spread this out over years, right? Yeah. So you, I mean, there's maximums that you can do for pour-ins and things like that to get it going. So, and that's another reason, that's another example of stacking. Okay. Because when you first start the concept of infinite banking, you might really go, okay, that makes a lot of sense. I don't have a hundred thousand dollars to pour in right now. Totally fine. You don't need that. You can start it at any point. You could do $300 a month and you can start the process. OK, it just means that you're going to your money is going to grow slower because you're not doing the big pour in. OK, so let's say you do that. You open a policy. You're paying three hundred dollars a month. It's structured the right way for infinite banking. And then you get a bonus at work or you close a large transaction on a land deal or a real estate property. And you now have one hundred thousand dollars you want to pour in. Well, we can't go back and restructure that policy because it's already there. So that would be a reason for you to open a second one. And now you can pull from both of them in the ways that we've talked about. So I personally have four policies on myself. I've got four on my husband and then I've got two on each of my children. The idea behind the ones on your children, is that just so that when they are adults, they have a fund that they can start pulling from instead of going to a bank and paying all their interest to them? Yeah. A couple of reasons. Okay. So life insurance is based on health habits and age. So everything that we're talking about today, if you want it, we still have to qualify you. It's not a guarantee that you're going to get it, which is why it's better to start young. Even if you don't have a bunch of money, like this isn't something that's only reserved for the gazillionaires of the world. It's for anyone. It's just going to look different depending on where you're at financially. Okay. For children, a couple of reasons based on health habits and age, my son has asthma. So when he goes to get a policy at the standard age, you know, in 30s, in their 30s is typically when people start looking at this stuff, he's automatically going to be a higher rating and therefore a higher cost of insurance. And so it's a way to protect him from that because he can take over the payments. Okay. The other reason, there's two more. The other reason is we don't have a crystal ball. We cannot predict the future and things happen. So if any of my children, heaven forbid, get cancer, develop a terminal illness, chronic disease, any of those things, I now can use the living benefits from their policy rather than tapping into our future planning, like our 401k, our Roth, our HSA. We don't have to tap into any of that and pay any of the penalties. We have the policy there for it. Okay. And then the final reason is what you said at the beginning, which is so we're creating a pool of funds and were diversifying their assets from a young age where they could use it to. Get their own infinite banking policy. They could use it to start a business, to pay for a wedding, to buy a house, right? So it's giving them the ability to have resources, which that's what money is. Money is the ability to have resources, to be able to make the decisions that you want, and to be able to give back and impact in the way that feels good to you. Who do you think is a good fit and who is not a good fit for getting this kind of policy? If we just assume they're healthy, you could get it. But like just graduated from college, you got a hundred thousand dollars in debt. I'm barely surviving as it is. Does it make sense for those people to start a policy like this? Or is it more for like, no, wait till you're pretty well established. You got a really good income. How do you differentiate that? Every single person, no matter what age should have a policy. And it doesn't matter, like maybe you can't afford to get this one started, but you should have a policy that's structured at a minimum with living benefits because we can't predict the future. And you're already in a situation where if you had a big issue happen. So think of it like this. You're the engine of your life. Okay. What happens when a car engine stops working? You can't go anywhere. You can't roll down the window. You can't change the, it from park to reverse. It's literally just sitting there, right? You're the engine of your life. You're responsible for the roof over your head, for making the payments on the student loan, for your family, for the car that you drive, for your health. And if something happens to you and you don't have the proper protection, it's only going to set you 10 steps back from where you already are. So if you're in a situation where like you're in debt, you're just getting by, like you're a candidate for a term policy with living benefits. And then we will look at your financial infrastructure to say, okay, at this point, when you get to here, it makes sense for you to get a cash accumulating policy, right? But it's something that this is the only type of coverage that has a guaranteed ROI. Just to be clear, for those, myself included, who are not totally familiar with all the life insurance lingo, when you say living benefits, what is that? Yeah. So living benefits is where you get access to the death benefit while you're alive, when you experience a critical, chronic, or terminal illness. Okay. So it allows you, so it's, most people have this misconception that like, oh, I'm young and healthy, so I don't need it. Or I don't have kids. I don't want to leave money for anybody. But the right policy structure the right way is actually designed to protect you while you're alive. And heaven forbid, should you pass away? Sure. Then there's the standard death benefit and whatnot. But living benefits are what protect you while you're here. If the unexpected occurs. To be clear, when you say that everybody should have a policy with living benefits, you mean even somebody who doesn't have two pennies to rub together, they can't make their loan payments, they can barely pay for their rent and utilities, they should ignore those things and pay for this instead. Is that what you're saying? Or am I taking that too far? No, definitely taking that too far. Absolutely not. Okay. So you don't mean everybody then? Yeah. Okay. Let me be very clear. So if you are not able to make your rent, if you're not able to make your car payment, obviously we got to get you to like. Level. Once you're level and you have some additional, that is going to safeguard you if something happens to you from going backwards. But no matter what, when you open up a policy, it needs to be something that you know you can pay for because otherwise you're just throwing the money away. If you stop making the payments, then the policy is going to lapse. But you can get, if you're young and healthy, you can get a term policy with living benefits for under $50. Dollars okay and yeah and for somebody that you know for parents it's something you can get on your kids now so that you're not tapping into your 401k like I talked about if something happens and it's something that you're building wealth for them and starting to prioritize to really set them up for success but it's for everybody as long as you can afford the premium okay but it's not something that you have to wait until you're, you know, making hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars to get. And I don't know where that line is. There probably isn't one right answer for everybody, but I was given advice in my early twenties before I graduated college, before I had a job, get a whole life insurance policy. This person was not talking about infinite banking. So like it's terrible advice. I didn't think it made any sense at all. And I know that very clearly now, but I am trying to figure out like, okay, how much disposable income should you have? When should the switch flick and say, okay, now I'm ready because I have this amount of money. Now I should do it. Listen, you don't want to be stressing about the policy, but I also don't want to advise you to wait until you feel like, you know, you have thousands of dollars extra a month because it really, the power of it and what I've seen it do to protect people when the unexpected occurs is. Infinite. Like it, there's not a value you can associate to it. So it's a matter of don't work with somebody like it sounds like Seth did. That's just trying to push a product. Okay. And that's the hard part is really weeding out through the agent that is going to say, Hey, you know what? You're not quite ready for this. This is going to be a burden based on the finances that you shared with me. Come back when, you know, let's, let's revisit this in six months and see where you're at. Right. So it's working with somebody that and not waiting because sometimes what I see people do is they think that because they have debt or because they're barely getting by, they have this like shame of that being their situation. And everyone's been there. I've been in debt before and it was freaking scary. Right. But there's no shame in it. So finding somebody that doesn't make you feel that way and will be honest with you is going to be the most important thing and advocate for yourself. If somebody, if you just shared with somebody, I'm barely getting by, this is my situation. And they're like, you need a $300 a month policy. Not a good fit. Not a good fit. I have heard that life insurance agents can earn a huge amount of money in year one when they sell a policy like this, like up to 80% of that first year's payment is just cash in their pocket. If that's even remotely true, why is this still a good deal? Yeah. So nobody works for free. And you wouldn't expect to work for free. So agents don't work for free. And when they structure it the right way, it depends on how it's structured. So 80%, it depends on where they're at in their comp structure with a carrier. It depends on what the carrier is playing. There's a lot of variables that go into how we are paid. Agents make the most, the upfront amount of their money on the first year, because you are paying for this policy for a long, long time. That is not taking away anything from you or taking anything out of your pocket, it is paying them for their services. Okay. Now this is where it gets hairy because if they're structuring it improperly on a, on a whole life insurance, infinite banking model, we make the least amount of money. Okay. Because again, it's off of the death benefit. That's what they're getting compensated on. Not the premium that you're paying in, not your $15,000 a year that you're, you're putting in. It's the ratio of the death benefit that's getting paid out to the agent. But agents are paid. They get an upfront of about nine months of the death benefit ratio. And then they get the other three after year with after the plan sustains. Also, they are charged back if you cancel. So it's not like they just get this money and that you're paying it. If you paid for six months and canceled, that agent is getting six months charged back. Does that color the agent's advice or opinion on what I should buy? Like, what if term really is the right thing? But like, you know, you're going to make a ton of money if you sell me a whole life policy. So that's just going to push. Does that come into play? Honestly? I mean, of course it does, right? Of course it does. And that's where finding the right agent and how they run their business is the most important part because the insurance agency model is highly built on like running leads and learning five different strategies and pushing those things, right? So I don't run my agency that way. I don't run leads. I am by referral only. And I don't work with anybody that's not going to look at your finances as a whole. So think of it as like a hybrid of a financial planner coupled with a life insurance discussion. Okay. My mission is to change how this industry is ran because it isn't the agent's fault. It's what they're being taught. It's just like any other mentor. You're as good as the information that you're getting. And so if that agent is, is getting taught that no, we only push to term policies, that is what they're going to share, right? So some ways that you can sort of sniff that out as a consumer that's looking for the right type of coverage is to ask some great questions. How is your agency structured? Are you leads-based? How many carriers do you work with? What types of policies do you typically write? Right. To really understand it. And then the other thing is that a lot of agents, because it's like real estate, anybody can get their license. Right. And go work somewhere. And then they're as good as the place that they're working. And if that is their only source of income, the only way that they make money, then, yeah, they want to feed their family and they want to do it. So absolutely. But I would I would argue that that's the answer in any industry. There's bad actors everywhere. Right. Yeah. And it's a, I think it's kind of a similar thing to a real estate wholesaler who gets a property under contract and then they sell, you know, they assign the contract to somebody else who pays an assignment fee and then they close on the deal. And, you know, there's this fear among real estate wholesalers like, well, what if they find out how much I'm making and then they don't want to do it and all this stuff. And the answer to that is it's still a good deal on the other end. Like if the money's still, if the math's still maths, like it doesn't really matter how much the middleman is getting paid. So I think especially real estate investors, if anybody should understand this, it's them. Is there playing that game? Yep, absolutely. And it's, you know, being not being afraid to ask questions. Don't just outsource everything because this isn't your area of expertise. It's okay to push the agent to give you the answers. In fact, a good agent will really respect and like that because they're like, okay, like you're the ideal client because you understand it and you're doing additional research. You're not just taking my word for it. Are you in Kellen Faulkner's, uh, A2A AI course right now, Daniel? I'm not in her course. No. Have you ever, have you ever been through it or? I have been through it and Kellen and I were actually just at a conference together a week ago. So it was lovely to see her. Yeah. She has, I love the way that she tracks and like helps with the money stuff in her course. Well, the reason I just thought of that is I'm in her course right now and we're talking about how to build cloud projects and custom GPTs and basically these big AI machines that are specifically built to like know everything about a certain subject. And I almost wonder if you could build something like that for this. So like anybody could come in and start talking to it and it can ask the right questions and help you decide like, what is the right thing for you? Like, is it term with living benefits or is it a whole life policy or is it this? Like, like gather the information and like give honest feedback about what they should be looking at based on your knowledge base. It is in the works, Seth. Whenever you do have that done, give me a link to it if it's free and I'll throw in the show notes for this. People can check it out. Absolutely. Yeah, no. And that's when I say I'm on a mission to change it is that at this point in time, like information is at our fingertips. So if somebody is feeling that resistance of going and talking to somebody, how great would it be to just talk to a robot and get the information and know that that robot was trained by the person that you could potentially be talking to, that you're thinking about booking the appointment to learn more. Well, Danielle, it's been awesome talking with you about this. I learned a bunch. Hopefully people listening to this have learned a bunch too. If people want to find out more about how this works or connect with you in any way, is there something they should do? Yeah, I'm most active on Instagram. so you could follow me on Instagram at Life by Danielle. Everything is linked there. You can also go to my website, DanielleMcKinley.com. But if you have any questions or anything landed and you're feeling like, I feel dumb asking that question, there is no dumb question. And I am obsessed with helping people around money and future planning and protection. So please reach out to me. I would love to connect with you. Awesome. And I'll be sure to include links to Danielle's Instagram and website in the show notes, which is retipster.com forward slash 249. Danielle, again, it's great talking to you. Thanks for coming on the show and everybody listening. We will talk to you next time. Thank you.

Head Shot

Seth Williams

Host